Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is RCA trying to ruin your precious vinyl?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Is RCA trying to ruin your precious vinyl?

    Hey all!
    Long time. I have some very important information that I felt necessary to pass on to you. I need to give you a little history about a product many of us have used called Discwasher.


    1979 - The Discwasher D3 record care system sold by Discwasher Inc. out of Columbia, MO 65201, at this time is the most popular, well respected record care product available. The following information is taken from the Discwasher D3 owners manual.

    1. Handle is made of solid milled Walnut

    2. The cleaning pad fabric has PATENTED "slanted" fibers, set into alternate rows. These unidirectional micro-fibers pick up dirt instead of lining it up, and the spaces between the rows allow solubilized micro-dust and contamination to bind to the absorbent fabric backing by capillary action. With other record cleaners this contamination is allowed to dry back onto the record surface.

    3. The D3 fluid is a significant advance in record care. This special fluid has a cleaning ability that is chemically "directed" at fingerprints and common disc contaminants. D3 offers PATENTED chemical protection and buffering to protect critical vinyl additives, a chemical release system that pulls contamination away from micro-grooves and into the Discwasher fabric, plus a nonadhering static reduction system.


    1987 - My Discwasher pad after several years of faithful use is showing some wear, so I felt it was time to replace it. Discwasher is no longer it's own company, as it is now owned and distributed by Accessory Products out of Schiller, IL 60176.

    1. Although the handle looks to be a hardwood, it doesn't have the beauty & "depth" of my original '79 model.

    2. The brush surface is now more rounded, requiring several passes over the same surface requiring more fluid and time, while the original brush could do all the tracks in one pass.

    3. There is no more gap between the rows of bristles for the contaminates, resulting in more cleaning of the brush itself.

    4. The bristles although still seem to be unidirectional, are longer, less stiff and more cloth like, and don't look like they will drop into the grooves as well.

    5. The fluid has changed as well, as it is now D4+ which although works OK, seems to be less "thick" and more runny, almost like water.


    LATE 1990's - My brush is so contaminated I needed to replace it again. Discwasher has once again "passed hands", as it is now being distributed out of Lake Mary, FL 32748.

    1. The storage box no longer has the woodgrain look as it is black in color - I guess to more match the audio components of this time period.

    2. The handle now looks to be white birch - no real big deal there.

    3. The cleaning pad is now tan in color, and is less unidirectional and even more like cloth - almost like teri cloth.

    4. Even more important, the D4+ fluid has changed as well, which now for the first time in the products history, it now carries a flamable warning because it now contains Isopropanol (CAS# 67-63-0). It also now had a slight odor that I recoginized but could not place, so I avoided using it at the time, as I had a large refill bottle of the earlier D4+ version 1987.


    2006 - I was finally starting to run out of my bulk bottle of '87 D4+, so I started to look around for some more. I was very happy to find some D4+ fluid at a local pro music shop. Once again, the product was in different hands as it is now being sold by RCA. But when I opened it and tried it on thank goodness a non-important LP, my happiness quickly turned to anger! The fluid RCA is passing off as D4+ has the exact same stink you would get from a bottle of pure Isopropyl Rubbing Alcohol, just like what you would buy at your local drug or grocery store! I AM TICKED!!! And you who know what alcohol does to vinyl - it will dry it out and ruin it! How RCA can get away with this is beyond me! I guess RCA is not content with the RIAA law suits against people who practice file sharing, as it looks like they are also trying to force you to replace your LEGAL PURCHASES as well.

    The REAL Discwasher, as far as I'm concerned, thanks to RCA is now dead and gone. May it rest in peace. The decision to continue using the product is now in your hands... You have been warned.

  • #2
    I take it that there is no hint anywhere as to the chemical composition of the original D3 cleaning solution.
    "Who put orange juice in my orange juice?" - - - William Claude Dukenfield

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Craig,
      Finally got it posted! If someone wishes to try to "back track" to the original creators of Discwasher D3 fluid, I have their complete original address:

      Discwasher Inc.
      1407 N. Providence Rd.
      Columbia, MO 65201

      I have looked thru the D3 owners manual for the chemical composition, but have found very little. It did say that tap water contains about three times as much dry weight residue as D3 fluid. It also said other "record cleaners" typically contain about twice as much dry weight residue. It also mentioned the complex formula of Discwasher fluid becomes less effective after prolonged exposures of environmental temperatures exceeding 95 degrees F.

      My last remaining small bottle of D4+ (v1987) may not be worth having a chemical analysis done as it has spent some time in a mobile home enviroment where temperature extremes are the norm. This fluid of mine has also frozen at one time from storage, so it may not be any good at all. But I could send it somewhere if you know someone who could look at it...

      Ironically, the D3 owners manual gave this warning:
      "Do not be tempted with "fast" record cleaners. Alcohol is the fastest record cleaner of all - and can be shown by laboratory tests to extract critical vinyl additives." It also mentioned: "Alcohol will purge protective compounds from the record chemistry." What it also said was: "Stabilizers are put into the record for long term vinyl integrity. To extract these stabilizers shortens record life. Only Discwasher System carefully balances its D3 fluid for lowest possible stabilizer extraction.

      As to the chemical composition of the D3 fluid, the manual gives no clue as to what it is. Only the original creators would know for sure.

      Comment


      • #4
        I am not sure what to make of it, but I guess one could always go back to the old standby solution - - - distilled water. It may not clean the record as well as D3, but it probably will not hurt the vinyl or leave any residue behind.

        This is just a guess, but I would imagine that record cleaners are mostly distilled or de-ionized water anyway. Probably the "magic" comes in with the type and concentration and amount of the surfacant that they add in with the distilled water.
        Last edited by Craig Maier; 01-17-2006, 11:41 AM.
        "Who put orange juice in my orange juice?" - - - William Claude Dukenfield

        Comment


        • #5
          Is there any indication on the bottle that it might be patented -- and therefore perhaps have some portion of the formula listed with the patent?

          Comment


          • #6
            Sorry Brian,
            Although the D3 owners manual says the fluid is patented, there is no listed patent numbers in either the owners manual or on the bottle. The owners manual has a date of 1978 for the printing, but nothing else.

            Comment


            • #7
              I had time to do a patent search this morning and found the patent and formula. It was patented in 1974 by Dishwasher, Inc. as patent #3,951,841 and can be found at this link:

              http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=8&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1='discwash er,+inc'&OS="discwasher,+inc"&RS="discwasher,+inc"

              It gives a couple of formulations of the solution with ingredients listed by percentage and a lot of misc. info on the solutions properties and also how the brush is constructed and worked. Since there is a wide range of percentage permitted for each component, it probably would be pretty easy to mix up in the kitchen. A primary reason for the patent was its use of DISTILLED water -- wow!

              Hope this helps.

              Brian
              Last edited by Brian; 01-17-2006, 09:36 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DJBohn
                Hi Craig,
                Ironically, the D3 owners manual gave this warning:
                "Do not be tempted with "fast" record cleaners. Alcohol is the fastest record cleaner of all - and can be shown by laboratory tests to extract critical vinyl additives." It also mentioned: "Alcohol will purge protective compounds from the record chemistry." What it also said was: "Stabilizers are put into the record for long term vinyl integrity. To extract these stabilizers shortens record life. Only Discwasher System carefully balances its D3 fluid for lowest possible stabilizer extraction.

                As to the chemical composition of the D3 fluid, the manual gives no clue as to what it is. Only the original creators would know for sure.
                Brian,

                Thanks for the link. It's interesting how they fuss about alcohol, yet it's one of the ingredients. Quoting from the patent: "emulsifier selected from the group consisting of propylene glycol, ethylene glycol, and glycerine and included in an amount of between about 0.001 to 0.0125 percent by weight, an alcohol selected from the group consisting of methyl, ethyl, propyl and isopropyl alcohols and included in an amount of between about 0.01 to 5 percent, and the remaining part of the composition comprising a liquid carrier of water present in an amount of not less than 94 percent by weight, said alcohol being included to make the surfactant more soluable in said water

                What I read supports the old wag that Discwasher fluid is the most expensive distilled water in the world. They also turn it into a positive, claimng it has a very low dry weight residue. That's because there's an extremely small amount of anything other than distilled water!

                My favorite cleaner remains Labtone, sold by VWR Scientific. It's formulated to clean laboratory glass and rinse exceptionally well, so that its residue doesn't contaminate any other chemicals. See http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/printthread.php?t=1544

                Doug

                Comment


                • #9
                  Good morning all,
                  I guess I'm not the only who has been buisy on this, as I also did a patent search last evening & sent a copy to Craig. I came up with the same patent # 3,951,841 only it was dated 4/20/76 (maybe an updated formula?) invented by a Bruce R. Maier (any relation Craig?). I did notice one of the formulas listed didn't have any alcohol in it, and was the formula selected for commercial usage.

                  Sodium Azide .004% by weight
                  Propylene Glycol .005% by weight
                  Surfacant (Tween 80 or Span) .075% by weight
                  Distilled Water (as a carrier) 99.916% by weight

                  But you are right DougMac - no matter what formulation was used, it is still mostly all distilled water, but it is claimed to be used only as a carrier for the other ingredients.
                  One thing to also note, all the formulations are percentage by weight and not by volume, which could change the numbers a bit.
                  Last edited by DJBohn; 01-17-2006, 11:14 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Interesting - - - mostly just distilled water. I thought that it might be useful to post some more information. Here are some more details from the Patent:




                    This application is related to and comprises a continuation-in-part of the application having Ser. No. 260,828, and filed on June 8, 1972 and now abandoned; priority being herein claimed with respect to said earlier application.



                    Claims





                    Having thus described the invention what is claimed and desired to be secured by letters patent is:

                    1. A phonograph record cleaning composition useful for loosening and coagulating particulate matter and inducing fungicidal activity upon the record surface without leaving any evident dry weight residue after usage, and consisting essentially of a fungicide of sodium azide in an amount of between about 0.0001 to 0.001 percent by weight, a nonionic surfactant selected from the group consisting of octyl phenoxy polyethoxy ethanol and nonyl phenoxy polyethoxy ethanol and included in an amount of between about 0.0003 to 0.025 percent by weight, and emulsifier selected from the group consisting of propylene glycol, ethylene glycol, and glycerine and included in an amount of between about 0.001 to 0.0125 percent by weight, an alcohol selected from the group consisting of methyl, ethyl, propyl and isopropyl alcohols and included in an amount of between about 0.01 to 5 percent, and the remaining part of the composition comprising a liquid carrier of water present in an amount of not less than 94 percent by weight, said alcohol being included to make the surfactant more soluable in said water.

                    2. The invention of claim 1 wherein the water is distilled water.


                    ------------------------------------------------------------



                    A typical formulation for the fluid may comprise as follows:



                    INGREDIENT PERCENTAGE BY WEIGHT

                    ______________________________________

                    Anti-microbe up to 1

                    Emulsifier up to 1

                    Surfactant up to 1

                    Liquid Carrier at least 97

                    ______________________________________



                    Another formulation for the fluid composition of this invention may be as follows:



                    INGREDIENT PERCENTAGE BY WEIGHT

                    ______________________________________

                    Azide up to 0.3

                    Surfactant between .005-.2

                    Propylene Glycol between .075 and .2

                    Alcohol between 0.01 and 5

                    Water remaining percent

                    ______________________________________



                    Another more specific formulation, and the one which has found effective commercial usage may be defined as follows:



                    INGREDIENT PERCENTAGE BY WEIGHT

                    ______________________________________

                    Sodium Azide .004

                    Propylene Glycol .005

                    Surfactant .075

                    Distilled Water 99.916

                    100.00

                    ______________________________________



                    Another formulation utilized:



                    INGREDIENT PERCENTAGE BY WEIGHT

                    ______________________________________

                    Sodium Azide up to .001

                    Emulsifier up to .0125

                    Surfactant up to .025

                    Alcohol up to 5.0

                    Water at least 94.9615

                    ______________________________________



                    Another formulation presenting the range of the preferred ingredients is as follows:



                    INGREDIENT PERCENTAGE BY WEIGHT

                    ______________________________________

                    Sodium Azide .0001 to .001

                    Surfactant .0003 to .025

                    Propylene Glycol .001 to .0125

                    Alcohol .01 to 5

                    Distilled Water at least 94

                    ______________________________________



                    Last edited by Craig Maier; 01-17-2006, 11:42 AM.
                    "Who put orange juice in my orange juice?" - - - William Claude Dukenfield

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Craig's Record Cleaner Formulation

                      Craig's Record Cleaner Formulation; Absolutely No Patents Pending. This forumlation is based on the Discwasher patent, assuming that all ingredients have the same density as Distilled Water which is a pretty reasonable assumption.

                      (For Cleaning Vinyl Records)

                      All of these ingredients can be purchased from a supermarket.

                      Note: Prestone Antifreeze consists of the following and is toxic to humans and pets:
                      - Ethylene Glycol (107-21-1)
                      - Diethylene Glycol (111-46-6)
                      ------------------------------------------------
                      Ingredients:

                      1. One Gallon of Iron Water (consists of Distilled Water)

                      2. 70 % Isopropyl Rubbing Alcohol (Part of our Emulsifier)

                      3. Automatic Diswasher Cleaning Liquid {Like "Cascade Complete" brand - - - be sure that you DO NOT use the type that includes chlorine bleach as an ingredient} (Part of our Surfacant)

                      4. Antibacterial Liquid Hand Soap such as "Softsoap" (Our Antimicrobe agent and another part of our Surfacant)

                      5. Small amount of Prestone anti-freeze or equivalent (This is the other part of our Emulsifier)

                      ----------------------------------------------------------

                      Recipe:

                      1. Remove 1/2 of a cup of water from the Gallon of Distilled Water. Discard this water; all the following ingredients are added directly to the large bottle of distilled water.

                      2. Add 3 Teaspoons of Prestone Anti-Freeze to the Water.

                      3. Add 4 Teaspoons of 70% Isopropyl Rubbing Alcohol to the concoction.

                      4. Add 5 Teaspoons of Automatic Diswasher Liquid to the concoction.

                      5. Add 5 Teaspoons of Liquid Antibacterial Soap to the concoction.

                      6. Put the cap back on the Water bottle.

                      7. Stir thoroughly for 5 minutes.

                      8. Let it settle for one hour.

                      9. Stir Again.

                      10 Done

                      Note: Store at temperatures between 35 to 100 degrees F. Keep bottlecap on tightly when not in use.

                      WARNING:

                      THIS FORMULATION IS MADE FROM INGREDIENTS THAT ARE TOXIC TO HUMANS AND PETS. BE CAREFUL IN HANDLING THESE INGREDIENTS BY AVOIDING SKIN CONTACT AND KEEP ALL OF THEM OUT OF THE REACH OF CHILDREN. DO NOT DRINK THIS SOLUTION OR ANY OF ITS CONSTITUENT COMPONENTS.

                      I offer no guarantees as to the effectiveness of this formulation in its stated application. The user assumes all liability associated with its use.
                      Last edited by Craig Maier; 01-29-2006, 03:49 PM.
                      "Who put orange juice in my orange juice?" - - - William Claude Dukenfield

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Craig Maier
                        Craig's Record Cleaner Formulation;

                        Recipe:

                        1. .....
                        7. Shake

                        8. Let it it settle for a while

                        9. Done
                        7. Shaken --- not stirred?
                        Last edited by Brian; 01-17-2006, 08:12 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hmmmmm - - - I will have to ponder that one for a while. It probably would make a huge difference in the audio sound quality produced. Give me a day or so, and I will report back after digesting it. Or, maybe someone should make two batches, one shaken the other stirred and then do some A-B listening tests to get at the truth of the matter.

                          Note: I was never too good in the kitchen.

                          Last edited by Craig Maier; 01-17-2006, 08:41 PM.
                          "Who put orange juice in my orange juice?" - - - William Claude Dukenfield

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'd stir so it doesn't froth up too much - tween detergents are terrible for that
                            At work I may look like I'm doing nothing, but at the cellular level I'm actually quite busy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Yeah, sounds right. Change step 7 to read "stir". As I said, I am terrible in the kitchen! I should ask my wife make our batch of this stuff else I will probably make a mess of it and the kitchen as well! Why, if I spilled antifreeze on a loaf of bread or a stick of butter, I would be inclined to just wipe it off and be done with it. That might be ill advised.

                              Last edited by Craig Maier; 01-17-2006, 10:41 PM.
                              "Who put orange juice in my orange juice?" - - - William Claude Dukenfield

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X