Order For Processing Noise Filters

[Ringmaster]

This pertains to processing vinyl LP's & 45's.

Some time ago, on one of the earler versions of DC Art, it seems that I read that we should eliminate the larger Scratch & Crackle noises first; then, progress to eliminate the smaller Scratch, Crackle, Narrow Crackle, then Continuous noise, then perhaps 60 Cycle Hum and Hiss, then Manual Declicking when necessary. Otherwise processing from the highest to the lowest order of filtering.

I have pretty much started filtering from the lowest noise levels and progressing to filter through to the higher noise levels.

Is there a preference as to the order of processing the various filters?

[Craig Maier]

Hi Ringmaster,

I would say that the rule should be whatever you find works the best for you and on your particular system. But generally speaking, the order that you outlined should work well - - - with one exception. I always use the VPA before anything to assure that the correct EQ curve is applied to the signal. If you are using an RIAA preamp with RIAA records, then it does not matter. But, if you are using early LPs or 78s or using a flat preamp to transfer, then I would recommend correcting the EQ first before any de-nosing is performed.

Craig

[Ringmaster]

I am recording from my turntable through my Audio Control Amp., so I would say that I do not have to correct the Eq. Does this sound logical?

RE: The order that I outlined; do you mean from the loudest filter to the smallest noise filters?

Thanks for your help!

[Craig Maier]

Hi,

Most "control amps" have an RIAA phono section, so the answer is generally - - - yes. However, if you are transferring pre-1954 LPs, then the answer is - - - maybe. There are a bunch of VPA (VPP) presets on the preset sharing area of this forum for those early monophonic LPs and the EQ curves used for them prior to the standardization on the RIAA curve in the Spring of 1954.

As for the idea of getting the biggest clicks first - - - yes, that is a good approach and the one that I generally use.

Craig

[Ringmaster]

Early on, the records did not contain dates; and, if I remember, "London" was the biggest original producer of 12" LP's. Many of the producers in the United States started with the 10" LP's; I have a few of these. I have got to clean my basement! I guess the boxed sets and the 78's will go first. I have many "Longines Symphonete Society", "Smithsonian", and "Reader's Digest" and approximately 12 linear feet of "Classical" albums in prime condition. I must have 10,000 LP's and 8,000 45's. You should see the kids expressions when I take people down to see my collection; the guys that fix the heat pump take longer than usual to get the job done! I can't even throw away my most damaged record; I always kept my records, because I knew, someday, there would be equipment to restore old records; funny, how this was in my mind (back when you couldn't even get a good turntable to reproduce the recordings).

Since I started collecting LP's when they first came out, I guess a few of them probably are pre 1954; however, I was heavy into the 45's at the time, and resisted purchasing LP;s, because I took my records and Stromberg Carlson (suitecase) to all of the dances, parties (Indoors & Out); the 45's were easy to tote, the grooves didn't touch when they dropped in the exchanger....

One night, I left four long boxes in my car on the back seat, (I partied a little too much), and the records in two of the boxes deformed along the exposed edges, from the sun; "I wish I could have died".

I wrote the record companies, and RCA kindly told me if I would give the the record numbers, they would replace the ones that were damaged; and they did, "at no charge". Columbia and all of the rest of the companies "were very sorry"; but, made no offer....

[DougMac]

Great Story!

I must have 10,000 LP's and 8,000 45's. You should see the kids expressions when I take people down to see my collection; the guys that fix the heat pump take longer than usual to get the job done! I can't even throw away my most damaged record; I always kept my records, because I knew, someday, there would be equipment to restore old records; funny, how this was in my mind (back when you couldn't even get a good turntable to reproduce the recordings).

You got me beat by a mile. I have maybe a third as many LP's and 1/8 as many 45's. I can't throw away records unless they're in pieces.

One night, I left four long boxes in my car on the back seat, (I partied a little too much), and the records in two of the boxes deformed along the exposed edges, from the sun; "I wish I could have died".

I wrote the record companies, and RCA kindly told me if I would give the the record numbers, they would replace the ones that were damaged; and they did, "at no charge". Columbia and all of the rest of the companies "were very sorry"; but, made no offer....

Great story. I had a friend at work ask me to transcribe a few of his albums. It was early summer. I saw him at lunch and asked if he'd brought in the records. He said: "Sure thing, let me get the out of the car." Sure enough, about 1/4 of them, including some of his most nostalgic, were warped beyond playability. Even though they weren't mine, it still hurt my feelings.

I really like the tone controls on VPA. I was transcribing a Victor Scroll 78 and found I got better results by knocking down the treble a smidge.

[Craig Maier]

Quoting DougMac:

"I really like the tone controls on VPA. I was transcribing a Victor Scroll 78 and found I got better results by knocking down the treble a smidge."

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The VPA Bass and Treble controls are both of the shelving variety (IIR type, pole-zero pairs). This is very similar to the architecture of the turnover and rolloff portion of phonographic EQ curves and that is why we choose that topology for the Bass and Treble in the VPA. So, they should provide excellent sounding compensation tweeks on phonograph records after the correct overall curve is established (using the left hand portion of the VPA).


Note that this is not the same technology used in the various EQs (10, 20, 30 Band and the 10 band paragraphic EQ). The VPA mids control also does not use the pole-zero pair method. All of the latter mentioned tone control filter types use a second order resonant topology having a Q values depending on the number of bands or the bandwidths set. In the paragraphic EQ, the Q value is settable by the user (Octaves control).

keywords: VPA Bass and Treble Controls, VPA Bass, VPA Treble, VPA Bass & Treble Controls, Virtual Phono Preamp Tone Controls

[Dan McDonald]

Sure enough, about 1/4 of them, including some of his most nostalgic, were warped beyond playability. Even though they weren't mine, it still hurt my feelings.

A friend gave me an lp that had been a favorite of his in college. He had it stored in a box in the attic of his garage, and when he found it, he asked me if I could transfer it to CD for him. It was as warped as you can imagine. Since it wasn't any good to him as it was, I tried the 'lp sandwich in the summer sun' where you put it between two pieces of glass for as long as you think it can stand it. ( I think mine was about half an hour in August). It came out almost flat, and I transferred it with very little damage from the warping.

I don't recommend this for anything except something that's going to be thrown away, but in this case it made something that was unplayable into something that was playable. It was a rare record he had gotten as a dj of his college radio station. From a small company, and I've never seen another one like it or found any reference to it, so this may be the only copy out there.

[Craig Maier]

Quoting Ringmaster:

"I must have 10,000 LP's and 8,000 45's."

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I am going to show this post to my wife; maybe she will leave me alone about my collection of 750 LPs! Sounds like you have a small Library of Congress there!

Craig

[Ringmaster]

Dan,

I tried the 'lp sandwich in the summer sun' where you put it between two pieces of glass for as long as you think it can stand it. ( I think mine was about half an hour in August). It came out almost flat, and I transferred it with very little damage from the warping
.

I thought about this, but decided not to try this approach because of the raised center of the record. If I remember, I tried the oven with two dishes that only had contact with the outer (lead in) section, but that didn't work; I think the record became more deformed.

If I had saved them, I could have used the Diamond Cut software to slow down the recording speed; then processed the records back to 75 RPM, and I could have processed all of the records.

The outer rim, say approx. 5" was bent down, and the needle would not follow the groove. This was > 25 years ago. Needless to say, I threw them away; they were my most favorite (at the time), because I only carried my most recent & favorites to our parties. If I had had a continuously variable record player (at the time), I could have slowed it down to record, then increase the playback speed of my (monaural) tape deck, to approximate the original speed, but the final recording would not have been exactly correct. This involved around 300 records; I thought of every method I could use (actually, I think Capital records suggested the oven method, at low temperature). Too late now, I wish I had saved them.

Funny how I thought (back in the '50's) that systems would be developed to restore recordings in the future. I think that was pretty intuitive at the time; that's why my basement is full of some pretty good stuff!

Craig,

I finally unstalled my DC v 7 installation, and re-installed my disk for the v7.5 program, and the record button gives me the correct recording Window. I chose to use this approach first, because I wanted to know if I needed to ask you to replace the disk.

If you were to see my basement, you would want to move in. If we were to have a fire, it would be pretty near impossible to extinguish! We have one small path leading to the washer & drier, just wide enough to carry the laundry through. I should take some photographs, and post them on the bulletin; but I would need to figure out how to reduce the image so I could send them. I have the "Adobe Photoshop Elements 8", this would send me off into another tangent, that would divert me from my music restoration. At my age, I wind up working on 3 or 4 projects at the same time, because I forgot what I had started out to do! I get great consolation, in knowing that I am not the only person that has this erratic behavior; but, I sure keep my mind active with a lot of technical stuff; if I were to even think this was "early onset dementia", it would not be as funny as I make it out to be!

Geebster,

I have the "Snagit" screen capture program; I suspect you also use this "great" software. I only know how to use a few of the features. I go there to do one simple screen shot, and I wind up consuming the rest of the day studying that program. I could spend days playing around this program too! Why don't you just tell me how you processed your "screenshot" in easy "step-by-step" instructions; I played around with this for approximately three hours yesterday, and still haven figured out how to reduce the "PNG" file small enough to attach to the forum.

Today, I (plan) to stop wandering all over the place, and work on my Diamond Cut v 7.5; wish me luck!

[Craig Maier]

Hi Ringmaster,

That is some description of your basement. I hope that you have an alternate escape route by your washing machine and dryer just in case you ever had to get out of there due to fire. Hopefully, there is a window nearby that you could use.

My wife thinks that I am bad with all the stuff down there. I showed her your last post about the number of records that you have and plan to show here this one so that I may appear to be a little more "Angelic" to her.



Craig

[Ringmaster]

I'm sure it will help a lot of the guys get in good graces with their wives.

My wife doesn't complain, because she collects books; and, a quarter of the basement is hers.

[Ringmaster]

Craig,

Didn't you tell me a couple of years ago that you cleaned out a lot of your records? More space makes more room for more stuff; Huh?

[Craig Maier]

Hi -

I gave away a lot of records that I did not particularly care for. But, I did keep about 750 LPs that I do like. They are all on my hard drive now for easy access and they have all been cleaned up so that they sound quite good.

And yes, things accumulate to occupy all availabe space. Seems like that is a law of physics. Corrollary - getting rid of stuff just creates a temporary hole.

Craig

[jfritz]

"I tried the 'lp sandwich in the summer sun' "

I used to have a job where I had to straighten pieces of metal. One of the last resort methods is to heat a small area on the high side with a torch. It will make the metal expand enough to deform the opposite side, which pulls the high side down. The trick is to get the heat in quickly.

On a couple of vinyl records I've had moderate success using a hair dryer to do the same thing. I only suggest trying this on records that are unplayable. It's what I call passing the "Is it scrap now?" test.