Ssssss

[Craig Maier]

If the "de-esser" is not working, perhaps the type of distortion or noise is not siblance distortion? Just a thought.

[cromag]

I'm following this thread with great interest. I mentioned elsewhere that I have a Starship LP where Grace Slick has a very noticeable "ess" -- bordering on a whistle. (So noticeable that when I hear it I immediately picture her with a gap in her teeth! It ruins the listening experience!) The essing is present when I listen to the LP, so I haven't introduced it with DC6, but it is more pronounced in the "cleaned up" file. I suppose that simply removing a significant hiss and some crackle may have "unmasked" the essing, but it may also have been "enhanced."

I can't entirely blame my turntable, which is a fairly low-budget set-up, because I have other albums by other artists with similar voices (Kate Bush, Frida, Heart, etc.) that have very little essing.

My main tools have been the dynamics processor and the paragraphic equalizer, but if anyone has any other suggestions, I'm listening.

[Geebster]

I think a lot of the ess's are in the original material and after cleaning it up sonically with DC6, we just happen to notice it more.

Many of the recording engineers of the day used to mix (especially singles) with the limitations of car stereos in mind, and often mixed "hot" anyway, which kind of compounds the problem.

I can remember that Linda Ronstadt had a pretty pronounced essiness to her music, especially when she was with the Stone Ponies. Then, later on, she started using this new recording microphone system that all but eliminated the esses (at least on vinyl).

So, I think that with some artists and the technology at the time, most of the esses were introduced at the time of the recording... not added by the process of restoration, or in the capabilites of the playback equipment. And the differences we hear from artist to artist, album to album can be noted by the care in which the recording engineer laid down the original tracks.

GB.

[Craig Maier]

Quoting Geebster:

"I can remember that Linda Ronstadt had a pretty pronounced essiness to her music - - - "

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The sound that Linda Ronstadt used was intentional; it was that of an Aphex Aural Exciter which added that "roundness" to her voice. It is especially noticable on the Nelson Riddle series that they put out. That sound is not what I would call an Essing situation. BTW - the Diamond Cut produce has an Exciter just like the one mentioned found under the VVA effect. One of the tube checkboxes changes it into an exciter.

Cromag - - - as for the Grace Slick Whistle sound, that might best be attacked with the Notch filter; it is not an essssing situation per se. Give that one a try. I am not sure what frequency to set it for, but you should be able to determine that experimentally.

[Geebster]

Oh, I am quite aware of the Aphex Aural Exciter... (if memory serves, which she started using on the album or 2 after "Heart Like a Wheel" )...But that was way past the point in her career I was referring to. Stone Ponies era.. circa 1966 or 1967.

Part of the problem (with her at least) is she had a lousy production team during her Capitol years. It got a little better when she moved on to Asylum (circa approx 1970), but not until she was past her prime (IMHO) that they finally figured out how to get her down on tape properly.

I saw her countless times live and her essing tendency really showed then.

Met her a few times, a really weird person.

GB.

PS. She has always had the tendency to go from 0 to 100 when singing, which makes almost everything she has ever sung kind of harsh. Good singer, but absolutely no finesse whatsoever.

[cromag]

Craig -- Yes, I'd thought of the Notch Filter, but it is mostly experimentation and I haven't hit it yet. This is probably a "psychoacoustic" thing -- the whistle doesn't seem to stand out in the spectrograph nearly as much as it does to me, so I've been hitting the various peaks and trying to center the filter there. No luck so far.

BTW -- Evergreen Vol. 2 by the Stone Poneys is way up on my list of LPs to find. It's frequently on Ebay, so it's out there, but part of the fun is finding an album you want in a bin of dollar specials.

I mentioned elsewhere that Thrift Shops in my area have seen an influx of LPs, some in very good shape. Well, they're still coming in. The shop I go to most frequently has just dropped the price from $1 each to $.50 each. I had to laugh, though. The sign now reads "Two for a dollar, or eight for $4.99." (sic)

[DougMac]

Production Quality

I have an LP and CD copy of Loggins and Messina "Sittin' In". I thought my vinyl copy was bad because of some of the essing I heard. When I got the CD, I found it was a production fault, the bad spots were also on the CD.

BTW, I like Linda Ronstadt, but I think she could have been better served with a different producer and A&R man for some of her records. "Living in the USA" comes to mind. I haven't heard her in person, but listening to her records makes me think she'd be a nightmare to try to record, especially if she had poor microphone technique. I think big voiced singers often suffer from a lack of control. Judy Garland comes to mind. "Over the Rainbow" became a classic because she gave such a terrific, nuanced performance of a great song. I think before she died she'd become a parody of her earlier self.

Doug

[Geebster]

BTW, I like Linda Ronstadt, but I think she could have been better served with a different producer and A&R man for some of her records. "Living in the USA" comes to mind. I haven't heard her in person, but listening to her records makes me think she'd be a nightmare to try to record, especially if she had poor microphone technique. I think big voiced singers often suffer from a lack of control. Judy Garland comes to mind. "Over the Rainbow" became a classic because she gave such a terrific, nuanced performance of a great song. I think before she died she'd become a parody of her earlier self.

Doug

I think you are a mind reader! My sentiments exactly. I was really quite impressed initially when I heard Ronstadt on record for the first time, but the more I heard of her, the more I realized, just like you said, her main gift was a big voice. Given proper guidance and production, she could have done a lot better than what she actually recorded. "Live" she was always a crapshoot. Sometimes it was OK, but usually she would just go for the "big note" and hoped that everybody would be impressed.

Judy Garland is a sad case indeed. She showed so much promise as a youngster, but never developed past a certain point. Most of her downfall, early on, sadly, can be credited to the studio exec's, who were more interested in making money than worrying about Garland's mental and emotional state. Given the proper handler's, she could have be one of the greatest singers ever; not that she wasn't good, especially early on. Her later performances, after her movie career was shot are actually painful for me to listen to; not because they are so technically poor, it just showcased what she DIDN'T do with her talent.

GB..

[Geebster]

that reminds me, they recently showed a 3 or 4 hour retrospective on Garland's career on my local PBS affiliate. I hadn't seen many of her later performances since they were originally aired (namely the ill-fated CBS Judy Garland Show), and I was shocked not only the condition of her voice but how old she looked. She was only 47 when she died, but her appearance made her look more like 67. Every grade school child should be required to look at the "Before" and "After" Judy as part of their school's drug awareness program. If, after looking at her after being strung out on mis-prescribed drugs for all those years, doesn't enlighten them about drugs, nothing will.

Sorry for the PSA, but it still makes me angry at what the studio did to that poor sweet kid. What a waste of a great talent.

GB

PS. Can you tell I am a fan of the "Early" Judy Garland. Yes. Enough said.
PSS. What made "Rainbow" so good, is that the song was written with her in mind. The songwriters took Garland's angst and used it to full benefit in that song. One of the best songs of all time. That is why it is included on my 3 CD's list to be taken along on a deserted island (different thread).

[DougMac]

Judy

PSS. What made "Rainbow" so good, is that the song was written with her in mind.

It didn't hurt that the writing was given to Harold Arlen with lyrics by E.Y. "Yip" Harburg. Yip Harburg also wrote the lyrics to "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?". "Brother" became a parody partly from Bing Croby's overwrought rendition, but if you stop and read the lyrics you can appreciate how strong a song it really is. It was written just 7 years before "Rainbow" and the two together form an arch of thoughts of Americans trying to deal with the Great Depression.

On three different occasions I joined the Judy Garland "Great Performances" at the exact same spot (too late), which began the later years. It's especially infuriating that Judy, at her own expense (because the studio refused to pay), got clean and adopted a healthier lifestyle. When she returned to Hollywood, she was constantly hounded by MGM to lose weight. At the time she weighed 95 pounds! She quickly succumbed to the pressure and started using again.

Perhaps the only sadder story of a child talent destroyed as a human is Michael Jackson, who unfortunately is seen as a less sympathetic character.

Doug

[Geebster]

If you ever get the chance to see the whole PBS show on Judy Garland, I heartily recommend it. The last part of the show for me was rather depressing, but the other parts of the program were excellent.

Yes, some of those songs of that era are gems, and it's unfortunate that some people don't give the songs and songwriters of that era the credit that they deserve. I am on my own personal quest to rediscover some of that music for myself, and it has been a most delightful journey.

I never thought I would ever catch myself saying this but ..." they sure don't write songs like they use to"... Not in every case of course; there are some excellent songwriters still out there, but the state of present day music is more about the production, and less about the songwriting.

Yes, again. Michael Jackson is another sad tale. He still seems to have his supporters, so there must be some good in the poor soul.

Excuse me... I have to go and have my daily fix of "Somewhere over the Rainbow". Now, which version to choose... Judy Garland, Jane Monheit or Katharine McPhee?


GB

[cromag]

I'd vote for Eva Cassidy.

[Geebster]

Well... For me at least, discussions on who does the best version of SOTR is difficult at best. I like all versions that are competently sung to some degree. There is no one winner, and that is why I like the various versions. Emotionally speaking it is hard to beat the Judy Garland version, and technically speaking it is hard to beat the Katharine McPhee (recorded) version. The Monheit/Cassidy versions show a good balance of both.

Sadly, two of the aforementioned artists are no longer with us, so we will never hear their versions live again. I've seen Jane Monheit on a couple of different tours and she is quite good live. Although I've culled over countless hours of McPhee's live tapes, I haven't (yet) had the opportunity to hear her version live. If she is half as good as her tapes suggest and she keeps improving, she will definitely be a force in the music business.

Errr... sorry, it's the voice teacher coming out of me.

GB.

[Craig Maier]

I was quite surprised that Kat McPhee lost to that guy on idol whose name I have forgotten. There is simply no comparison between the two in terms of basic musical talent. She stood out as she would when stacked up against any top vocalist in the music business; he just sounded to me like the average Joe in a wedding band. I predict that the winner will be forgotten, but Kat will be around for a long time.

ps - just remembered the guys name; Taylor Hicks.

[Geebster]

I predict that the winner will be forgotten, but Kat will be around for a long time.

Boy! I couldn't agree more. It is sure nice to hear someone agree with me. It seems like all my buddies are Taylor Hicks fans and I'm the sole Katharine McPhee Phan.
(err... Sorry I've still got McPheever)

Sure, Hicks has got a good knack at getting the crowd going live, but what I've heard on CD is OK at best... Please, you Taylor Hicks fans out there, don't hate me.

Technically speaking, Katharine McPhee has one of the purest voices I have heard in a long time and personally I can hardly wait to hear what her first CD will sound like.

I figure if David Foster is in her camp (one of the toughest cobs in the entertainment business) she must be pretty good... AND also can sing effortlessly with the likes of Andrea Bocelli she will definitely have staying power.

Getting back to the original sub-thread; right now her version is my favorite. Sure it steals heavily from the Jane Monheit arrangement, but vocally it is about the best I've heard so far.

GB

PS. All of this talk reminds me of the Ruben Studdard/Clay Aiken discussions after the winner of that year's American Idol. From all accounts I've read, and sales statistics indicate that Clay was the true winner in that contest; but that may change in time. Like they always say in the music business... "you are only as good as your lastest release".